Discussion:
Comics Reading Club: Zob's Thoughts on Marvel Comics THE TRANSFORMERS #53
Add Reply
Zobovor
2024-11-15 17:39:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
THE TRANSFORMERS issue #53 is called "Recipe for Disaster!" and is the
conclusion to the two-part story that started in issue #52. It was
printed on February 28, 1989, with a cover date of June 1989.  

The cover is one of the most striking and sexy in the entire
TRANSFORMERS run, with a scantily-clad armored woman (who we'll learn
later is called the First One) holding a deactivated Cloudburst,
clutching him by a handful of loose wiring from the back of his neck, as
if he were a baby kitten.  She calls out "NEXT!" as if this was just the
first in her Autobot killing spree. Shades of Circuit Breaker!  The
artwork is the first contribution to TRANSFORMERS by comics superstar
Jim Lee, who would later draw the cover for issue #67 as well.  It's
worth mentioning that she's illustrated in a far more provocative style
of armor on this cover than she actually appears in the internal
artwork.  

The writer was Bob Budiansky, and the artwork was by Jose Delbo
(pencils) and Dave Hunt (inks).  Jade Moede gets a credit for lettering
(having already done some of the uncredited lettering in the previous
issue) and Nel Yomtov colored the art.  

So when last we left our heroes, Autobot Pretenders Landmine and
Cloudburst had been captured by the robot-eating Meccanibals. They had
sought out the Meccanibals, originally, in search of microchips to
repair the Autobots who had been zapped by the Underbase-powered
Starscream.  This issue picks up where the last one left off, with the
meccanibals and their leader, Master Mouth, preparing to eat the
Pretenders after being exposed, revealed to be not just very large
humans in space suits but, in fact, robots in disguise.

Moreover, the Pretenders learn that the reason the Meccanibals have come
into the possession of so many microchips in the first place is because
they're among the remnants of their former robotic meals. I guess
they're the parts they don't actually eat and digest, so they spit 'em
out like gristle.  Cloudburst cannot, in good conscience, go through
with the deal, having learned this information. Of course, that's if
either of the Pretenders survive this encounter.

There's a weird narrative shift that takes place between last issue and
this one.  In issue #52, Landmine was very clearly the ringleader of the
pair, with Cloudburst more or less following him along as he created one
problematic situation after the next.  In this story, for some reason,
Landmine has taken a backseat while Cloudburst seems to be the one
making the decisions now.  It's certainly possible that Landmine
realized that his brash approach was causing too many problems for them,
but there's absolutely no narrative indication of this to drive the
point home.

Anyway, the Meccanibals produce a large electro-magnet that is powerful
enough to literally rip the Pretender robots right out of their outer
shells.  When they switch off the magnet holding the shells down,
however, the Pretenders realize they can radio-control them, effectively
doubling their numbers and taking the Meccanibals by surprise.  This
gambit proves ineffective, however, as the robots are quickly surrounded
and overwhelmed.  

Then Cloudburst tries a different approach.  He suggests to the
Meccanibals that if they eat him and Landmine, they wouldn't make a very
memorable meal.  But with the proper preparation and seasoning (mercury
sauce and lead sulfide crystals and some tasty iron fillings for flavor,
scrum-diddly-umpcious!) they could be transformed into a gourmet dining
experience.  This gets Master Mouth's mouth watering and he is more than
willing to entertain the idea.  He suggests traveing to planet Femax to
find the crystals in question, on the condition that they'll kill Berko,
who is still their prisoner, if they fail to return with the
ingredients.

Hi-Test and Throttle board the combined form of Dreadwing and give
chase, on the pretense of resuming their robot-spotting job for the
Meccanibals.  Sky Lynx, in turn, follows Dreadwing.  Arriving on Femax,
the Autobots encounter a group a band of armored female warriors, all
conveniently Transformer-sized.  After using their translators to
decipher the language, Cloudburst once again opts to reason with them,
as he did with the Meccanibals. Why not stick with what works, right?
 The warriors take them back to their camp to speak with their leader,
the First One.

Outside, Hi-Test and Throttle are momentarily startled by the male
Femaxians, who by comparison look like giants.  They combine with
Darkwing and Dreadwind to even the odds, inadvertantly revealing to a
watching Sky Lynx that the robot-spotters are in fact working directly
with some Decepticon robots of their own. The plot thickens!

Landmine and Cloudburst are taken to see the First One, whose people
seem surprised that the Pretenders are male. The Pretenders, of course,
allow the Femaxians to believe they're organic creatures.  When
Cloudburst once again takes point and explains they are on a mission to
save their friends, the First One proposes a test of strength to see if
the newcomers are worthy.  Landmine assumes that he will be the one to
be tested, but the First One sees something in Cloudburst and wants him
to take on the challenge.  

What follows is a montage of Cloudburst being assaulted with missiles,
wrestling with monsters, and jousting on alien horses.  Meanwhile, the
First One looks on with great interest.  The way she's sitting on her
throne with her legs spread wide and her sword resting between her
thighs communicates a lot just with body language alone.  I don't think
it's any sort of accident that she was drawn in this specific pose.  

Let's explore this further for just a moment.  Marvel was under a fairly
strict code in terms of what characters were allowed to overtly say and
do.  The Comics Code Authority was sort of the comic book equivalent of
the Hays Code for television and film, and there were a lot of
regulations about good championing over evil, criminals not being too
sympathetic, law enforcement not being painted in a bad light, etc.  The
sensibilities of the 1950's (when the Comics Code was put into place)
also prohibited not just overt sexual content but also "suggestive and
salacious illustration or suggestive posture."  

So, with these guidelines in mind, this single, seemingly innocuous
panel of the First One is skirting the line and positively dripping with
provocative content.  She says nothing in this panel (which is smart,
since the reader is left to supply their own imagination regarding what
she may be thinking) but the manner in which her legs are splayed apart
and her sword is casually resting between them is unmistakably
suggestive in nature.  It's not overt, but I'm honestly surprised the
Marvel editors allowed it to go to print.  

The First One is bald, incidentally, except for a long ponytail of
purple hair. Baldness is a sign of disease or age, so in some ways it
serves to counter the sexy design of the First One. Or maybe it adds to
it. I'm really not sure at this point. (In Star Trek: the Motion
Picture, the character of Ilya had a bald head and was supposed to be a
super sexy character. So, maybe that actually makes the First One more
appealing, on some level.)

So, I imagine the First One probably gets a sponge or something
off-panel, but when that's done, she congratulates Cloudburst on his
peak performance and invites him to her personal chambers to discuss his
well-deserved reward.  Cloudburst swallows hard.  He may be a
Transformer, but he's not an idiot, and the First One's designs on him
are pretty obvious at this point.  Even Landmine looks markedly
concerned.

Inside her chambers, the First One suggests that Cloudburst get into
something more comfortable and relieve himself of his battle armor.
 You'd think this would be the point where Cloudburst would have to
admit that it's just a disguise and that the armor can't actually come
off.  But, instead, he manages to remove it, revealing a Pretender shell
that's wearing a Ghostbusters-style jumpsuit and boots.  Why are the
Pretenders designed this way?  What would be the point of being able to
take off their armor to reveal normal-looking clothing?  I have no idea.
 But, it's a thing they can do, apparently.  I wonder how many layers
the First One thinks she's going to be getting him out of.  Is it
possible there's a completely naked gigantic human under there?  Well,
we sure won't find out... not if the Comics Code Authority had anything
to say about it.  

The First One explains how Cloudburst is so utterly unlike any other
males she has met.  The men on her world are primitive and savage, and
the women don't even allow them inside the inner sanctum.  She leans in
for a kiss, offering Cloudburst a chance at becoming her Second One...
her mate.  Bow chicka wow wow!  Cloudburst is forced to reject her
proposal.  At first, she assumes it's because he's not attracted to her.
Maybe it's the bald head?  But at this point, he's forced to reveal the
real reason why.  "Where I come from, there are no men, no women, no
mates," he explains.  His Pretender shell pops open and he finally tells
her the truth.  

Well, it probably doesn't go as well as Cloudburst had been hoping. He's
done pretty well up to this point trying to be reasonable, but I guess
some women just can't be reasoned with.  The First One, filled now with
rage instead of desire, goes for her sword and knocks his head clean off
his body.  Oops! Alas, poor Cloudburst, we hardly knew ye.

There's a throwaway line whose importance is diminished in light of what
has just happened, but I do want to explore it briefly.  As Cloudburst
is being seduced, Landmine is regaling the Femaxians with tales of his
heroic exploits.  "So there I was, versus fifty angry Sharkticons..." he
begins.  This is a bizarre thing to include in the comic at this stage,
given that the only known time Transformers have ever interacted with
Sharkticons was in the far-flung future of The Transformers: the Movie
and subsequent stories like "The Big Broadcast of 2006."  None of that
has taken place during the modern-day TRANSFORMERS comic book yet, so
how would Landmine know of the existence of Sharkticons?  This feels
like temporal cross-contamination.

Anyway, the First One comes storming into the room, clutching the
severed head of Cloudburst and screaming about lies and betrayal.
 Landmine is equally quick to anger, reaching for his sword, and he's
prepared to cut his way through every Femaxian in the room.  However, I
think he recognizes on some level that this is the kind of behavior that
got him into trouble in the past.  Cloudburst's approach has generally
served them well, and so he tries that instead.  He lowers his weapon
and tries to be reasonable.  

To her credit, the First One admits that she let her emotions get the
better of her.  Cloudburst is repaired, she offers the Autobots the
crystals they came for, and they are allowed to leave on good terms.  As
they emerge from the mountain, they are accosted by Darkwing and
Dreadwind.  However, Sky Lynx has been also waiting, and he sneaks up
from behind them and knocks their heads together, knocking them out
cold.

The Pretenders return to the Meccanibals and give them those tasty
crystals as promised.  Cloudburst offers them a new deal to counter the
previous one.  Sky Lynx has the robot-spotters and their ship in his
clutches, but the Autobots promise to let them go on the condition that
they put those microchips back where they came from, or so help me.
 Yes, Cloudburst is seriously proposing that they rebuild all the robots
they've eaten and allow them to go free as well.  I'm not even sure such
things are possible, but the Meccanibals agree to do it.  

Right before they leave, though, the Pretenders drop the bomb that the
robot-spotters are in fact partnered with the Decepticons.  The
Meccanibals are (understandably) outraged, and the last thing we see is
the combined form of Dreadwing being chased by the Meccanibal ship
through the darkness of space.  

So, Landmine and Cloudburst and Sky Lynx return to the Ark, but without
the microchips they desperately needed to repair the Autobots.  So, in
some ways this whole adventure was a complete waste.

However, it's fun in some ways to see new characters get the spotlight.
After a number of years in which characters like Ratchet and Blaster and
Shockwave hogged the spotlight, I like when other characters get to
participate as well. I generally *prefer* to see stories about my
favorite characters... but if the comic had only focused on the 1984-85
stars from the cartoon, then we'd never have eventually gotten fan
favorites like Nightbeat or Thunderwing or Bludgeon. But, I'm getting
ahead of myself!

Next issue promises the first appearance of the Micromasters.  It's
bittersweet, in some fashion, since they will be the last new
Transformers introduced by Bob Budiansky before he moves onto greener
pastures.  So, we'll look at that story next month!


Zob (never thought I'd go out of my way to buy a bag of ground walnut
shells, but here we are)
GoBackaTron
2024-11-20 23:36:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Zobovor
Post by Zobovor
The cover is one of the most striking and sexy in the entire
TRANSFORMERS run, with a scantily-clad armored woman (who we'll learn
later is called the First One) holding a deactivated Cloudburst,
Back in 2014 I got Jim Lee to sign this one for me and I remember him
saying that the original pencils for this h=cover had the First One
holding just the decapitated head of Cloudburst but they made him change
it. I also remember he wrote his signature on her vagina.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/evil_king_macrocranios/15591756791/in/album-72157648907180705

(That's a pic of Jim Lee signing my 67 and 53.)
Post by Zobovor
Moreover, the Pretenders learn that the reason the Meccanibals have come
into the possession of so many microchips in the first place is because
they're among the remnants of their former robotic meals.
I don't understand how these are the leftovers beyond the microchips
and how it was still possible in the end for the Meccanibals to
reconstruct the robots they already ate. Which means that they really
don't digest much of anything and they not only shit everywhere and
don't clean it up but their robo-shit is intact enough to piece back
together into the robots they ate. It's insane. Maybe I am overthinking
it but it seems like Budiansky isn't thinking it through enough.
Post by Zobovor
 In this story, for some reason,
Landmine has taken a backseat while Cloudburst seems to be the one
making the decisions now.  It's certainly possible that Landmine
realized that his brash approach was causing too many problems
I think we all know what really happened was Delbo lost track of who
was who.
Post by Zobovor
the Autobots encounter a group a band of armored female warriors,
I am sure Delbo was excited to draw Amazonian warriors. He loved
drawing Wonder Woman.
Post by Zobovor
What follows is a montage of Cloudburst being assaulted with missiles,
wrestling with monsters, and jousting on alien horses.
Amazonians and horses-two things Delbo loved to draw.
Post by Zobovor
First One looks on with great interest.  The way she's sitting on her
throne with her legs spread wide and her sword resting between her
thighs communicates a lot just with body language alone.
I wonder if it was just that slouching on thrones was sort of a 'King
of the Barbarians' trope sort of thing. Like when I think Conan I always
picture him slouching on the throne. And this character is thematically
a Queen of the Amazonians type so why wouldn't she do the same. Bad
posture is a trait of barbaric comic book royalty.
Post by Zobovor
the manner in which her legs are splayed apart
and her sword is casually resting between them is unmistakably
suggestive in nature.  It's not overt, but I'm honestly surprised the
Marvel editors allowed it to go to print.  
Oh my sweet sweet innocent Zob. This was nothing compared to the
sexually provocative stuff going on in the Amazing Spider-Man at the
same time. Todd McFarlane was constantly drawing Mary Jane naked or near
naked in '88. And I remember collecting the Sensational She-Hulk from
the same time and it wasn't for the story. You should check out issue 40
of Sensational She-Hulk. She jump ropes naked for 7 pages and then takes
a shower. Marvel was a bunch of horndogs and they knew their audience.
But apparently decapitated robots on the covers were too much.
Post by Zobovor
 Is it
possible there's a completely naked gigantic human under there?
They're no good to us if they can't pass for human! What I wanna know
is does the plumbing work. I never quite understood how Transformers
that turn into vehicles can propel themselves. Their tires look like
tires but are they really? Do they really have 'engines'? Do the
pretender beasts have dongs? Do Pretender penises exist and do they
split down the middle?
Judging from Cloudburst's reluctance to seal the deal with bald
Wonder Woman, I infer that Pretenders do have penises. He didn't want to
go too far not because he couldn't, but because it was morally wrong to
catfish her like that. I am sure he knew he was packin' heat enough to
get the job done. If I ever met Budiansky again I don't know if I could
ever come up with any context that would lead into that question and not
make me look like a total psychopath but hot damn I would love to know
if Clouburst would at least have made it to third base.
Post by Zobovor
 As Cloudburst
is being seduced, Landmine is regaling the Femaxians with tales of his
heroic exploits.  "So there I was, versus fifty angry Sharkticons..."
Also interesting is how Leader-One lady uses that line as a
springboard for her own "Enough of your lies, robot!" Kinda like she was
calling him out for telling stories about Sharkticons, as if she too
knew what a Sharkticon was.
Post by Zobovor
 Yes, Cloudburst is seriously proposing that they rebuild all the robots
they've eaten and allow them to go free as well.  I'm not even sure such
things are possible, but the Meccanibals agree to do it.
Yes they bargain with their food and play with their own robo-turds
and the Transformers completely fall for it. Budiansky was totally
unhinged at this point.
Post by Zobovor
 So, in
some ways this whole adventure was a complete waste.
Also in story it was a total waste if you conclude that the
Meccanibals never honored their part of the bargain. Because why would
they? The Autobot Pretenders got nothing done, they didn't rescue any
robots in the end, and worst of all Cloudburst didn't tap that giant
horny alien ass. But I guess he did give her head?
CodigoPostal
2024-11-21 18:30:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Now *this* is the witty and entertaining discussion that we come to ATT
to enjoy!
Zobovor
2024-11-22 19:51:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by GoBackaTron
I don't understand how these are the leftovers beyond the microchips
and how it was still possible in the end for the Meccanibals to
reconstruct the robots they already ate.
We would have to concoct some kind of crazy fan theory to make it work.
Like, let's say the Meccanibals are similar to the Quintessons, who
appear to be partly technological and partly organic. So maybe the
Meccanibals were once a completely organic race, who over time began to
replace parts of themselves with technology in order to live longer.
But, they took it a step further than the Quintesson and eventually
replaced everything. Completely technological, with no organic
constituents remaining.

However, because they were once biological beings, they still possess
the remnants of their biological urges. Maybe they don't need to eat
for sustinence at all, but they continue to act it out as some strange
vestigial instinct. So, in fact all they're really doing is going
through the motions, chewing up robots and excreting them without
actually digesting anything or even using them for fuel. It's like a
Cookie Monster toy that "eats" plastic cookies.

So in that scenario, it seems like it would be possible to put the
robots back together, at least in theory. They would be a little chewed
up, and I think it would be just about impossible to figure out which
parts originally went to which robots. Have you ever dumped out a big
box of LEGO and then looked for the parts to rebuild a specific set?
Now imagine your dog chewed on all of the parts first.
Post by GoBackaTron
This was nothing compared to the sexually provocative stuff going on in
the Amazing Spider-Man at the same time. Todd McFarlane was constantly
drawing Mary Jane naked or near naked in '88. And I remember collecting
the Sensational She-Hulk from the same time and it wasn't for the
story.
I'll defer to your expertise, since I didn't read a lot of comics in the
1980's. I've read more from the 1990's, which was when I was a horny
teenager and tended to take notice of the more titilating content.

True story: After the original TRANSFORMERS title met its end and I was
hungry for more content, I found an order form from Mile High Comics and
started ordering the back issues I hadn't yet read. Most of them were
only fifty cents apiece, back in 1993, which was phenomenal. But, I
needed to spend like twelve more dollars to hit their minimum order
requirement, so I threw in a copy of the Marvel Swimsuit Special,
because why not. I was a teenager and I liked drawings of scantily-clad
women. Some of the artwork was not great, but some of it was pretty
amazing. (And, apparently, despite being an awful artist on
TRANSFORMERS, Dwayne Turner actually does know how to draw. He just
doesn't know how to draw robots, apparently.)
Post by GoBackaTron
I never quite understood how Transformers that turn into vehicles can
propel themselves. Their tires look like tires but are they really? Do
they really have 'engines'?
If they had functional tires, then either they would have to deflate
when they change to robot mode (in the case of characters with no
visible wheels on their shoulders and legs) or else they would have to
shunt those parts into subspace. So, I tend to think they're only
designed to look like tires, and may actually be very intricate folding
parts that can collapse in on themselves. But, that raises the question
of how they can drive on the roads if the wheels aren't rubberized and
don't provide any grip.

They probably don't have internal combustion engines because they don't
run on gasoline, and at least one episode states Autobots don't emit
exhaust or pollutants into the air. I imagine they must have
miniaturized motors that govern the movement of their arms and legs,
which explains how characters like Optimus Prime can still operate parts
even when they're physically separated from his body. Maybe in robot
mode, the little motors make their arms and legs work, but in vehicle
mode, the same little motors govern the rotation of their wheels.

There's no practical way to address the disparity between the toys and
the fiction, though. In every fictional Transformers world, they turn
into cars with empty cabins and can accept passengers, but the toys
usually have vehicle cabins that are stuffed full of robot parts. Very
difficult to reconcile that, as it is, without also having to fill up
the vehicle mode with real-life car parts like engines and gas tanks and
things. There would just be no room left for the folded-up robot bits.
Post by GoBackaTron
Do the pretender beasts have dongs? Do Pretender penises exist and do
they split down the middle?
Even more disturbing is the idea that the Autobots copied the Pretender
technology from the Decepticons. Which means that if the Autobots are
anatomically accurate, it's likely that the Decepticon Pretenders, who
all turn into freakish monsters, can also shed their armor and become
naked monsters, complete with monster dongs.
Post by GoBackaTron
"Enough of your lies, robot!" Kinda like she was calling him out for
telling stories about Sharkticons, as if she too knew what a Sharkticon
was.
Landmine saying he fought fifty of them at once seems like a huge
exaggeration, at least on the surface, but Sharkticons do operate in
large packs. Hot Rod and Kup tangled with easily twice that many and
managed to survive. But, yes, Landmine was very clearly fibbing. He
was trying to impress the Femaxians, maybe so he could get into their
pants. This is supporting evidence that Autobot Pretenders can, in
fact, get it on!
Post by GoBackaTron
Yes they bargain with their food and play with their own robo-turds
and the Transformers completely fall for it. Budiansky was totally
unhinged at this point.
I think he was just sick of it all. He has expressed his frustration in
trying to tell certain kinds of stories, only to have Hasbro force him
to spend his time introducing Even More Robots instead. And then Hasbro
came up with the Pretenders, which meant that if Budiansky wanted to
keep his job, he had to figure out a way to work them into the story as
well. And evidently he did not want to keep the job THAT badly.

Which is a shame, because eventually the toy line would, indeed, feature
the return of popular characters like Grimlock and Starscream and
Shockwave and Blaster, which means that if Budiansky had just stuck it
out for another year, he would get to start writing for some of his
favorite characters again. It's like Budiansky had to trudge through
all the awful years and then Furman swooped in right at the end and got
to reap the rewards. It ain't fair, somehow.


Zob (and, yes, the Pretender dongs likely split right down the center)
GoBackaTron
2024-11-23 16:36:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Zobovor
if the Autobots are
anatomically accurate, it's likely that the Decepticon Pretenders, who
all turn into freakish monsters, can also shed their armor and become
naked monsters
I think i know what the lab was that Scorponok hacked to create his
Pretenders. I will dig up your issue 40 post to discuss it there.
Post by Zobovor
But, yes, Landmine was very clearly fibbing. He
was trying to impress the Femaxians, maybe so he could get into their
pants. This is supporting evidence that Autobot Pretenders can, in
fact, get it on!
I was watching a bunch of AI discussion videos on YouTube and
suddenly I realized what horny Landmine's behavior could also be
evidence of. Regardless of motive, Landmine could just be a non-sentient
robot running ChatGPT reacting to his environment as if it were a
prompt.
He was saying things that would be expected of someone in his
position, or more precisely he was picking words that would be
applicable to the situation. And what existing technology today writes
words appropriate to the situation it is in, the prompt it has been
given? Large language models like ChatGPT. Landmine was behaving like an
instance of ChatGPT that's been told to mimic human behavior if
surrounded by females impressed by acts of bravery. And he mindlessly
did it without regard for where those words would lead (which in this
case could possibly have been sex with biologicals).

It doesn't even have to be about sex. He may have been feeling
jealous of all the attention Cloudburst was getting and wanted to prove
the case that he was a mighty warrior as well, worthy of being let go
from this hostage situation at the very least. The whole issue here is
why would he lie. He was an Autobot who lied and the consequences could
have led to a giant Amazonian orgy, which I dont even know would have
been possible, but was certainly unethical. And it most certainly was a
lie because nobody finds themselves surrounded by 50 sharkticons and
makes it out alive.

By that point in the story it was understood that Cloudburst had
saved the day. Landmine didnt really have to make a case for his
greatness as the goal of winning their freedom had been acconplished as
farvas he knew. So again it makes no sense to try to impress the giant
Amazonians unless Pretenders have the biological reproduction drive, but
Clouburst flat out said there was no male, no female in Cybertronian
biology.

This all hinges on whether or not Landmine was trying to get laid and
whether he knew he couldn't really do that. Since at that point the day
was won as far as he knew, the only motive for impressing the ladies is
sexy times. But cybertronians would know that's just not a possible
outcome. Even if Pretenders had the biological hardware they would have
to have the behavior subroutine programmed in somehow. Nowhere was it
stated that Pretenders are a new species of Transformer that reproduces
sexually. But it does make sense to tell tales of bravado if Landmine
was a 'hallucinating' instance of ChatGPT (or the Cybertronian
equivalent) pretending to be a horn dog because the prompt is that he's
surrounded by female warriors impressed by such tales. (Either that or
he's a lying unethical Autobot which is not unheard of, but unlike
Sentinel Prime, Landmine was apparently lying to get sex.)

My point is that lying to get sex is a very human behavior but not
something an Autobot warrior would do in any situation. Such mindless
unethical behavior without regard for consequence is something more in
line with the output of a mindless large language model. I feel like
it's evidence that Landmine isn't really alive. I don't think the
Pretenders created in issue 40 are really alive. Cloudburst might be. At
the very least Landmine is a non sentient AI running large language
models.
Post by Zobovor
Zob (and, yes, the Pretender dongs likely split right down the center)
That's so brutal. I would hope they were at least detachable. Takara
actually has a modern line of transforming robot where the crotch
detaches and becomes a smaller robot. I would prefer that to the idea of
splitting synthetic schlongs.
Zobovor
2024-11-28 15:08:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by GoBackaTron
But it does make sense to tell tales of bravado if Landmine
was a 'hallucinating' instance of ChatGPT (or the Cybertronian
equivalent) pretending to be a horn dog because the prompt is that he's
surrounded by female warriors impressed by such tales.
The idea of how binary-bonding affected the Headmasters was explored to
some degree, with Zarak talking about how Scorponok was "reprogramming"
him on some level, and Spike Witwicky being haunted by Fortress Maximus'
influence even after he'd given after the Autobot life. We also know
that the Powermaster process created a similar fusion of minds, at least
in the case of Optimus Prime. But the idea of how the Pretenders were
affected was never explored at all.

They were all regular Transformers who started wearing syntho-organic
costumes for very long periods of time. According to the Hasbro tech
specs, at least, this had a significant impact on at least a few of
them. Iguanus seemed to start to think he was an actual lizard.
Doubleheader started wearing a Pretender shell with two heads, and he
seemingly developed a dual personality. Scowl went from being
unassuming to terrifying as a result of the shell. So we know that, at
least in some cases, becoming a Pretender radically changed their
personalities. Even Simon Furman played with the idea a little, when
Starscream was this cold, emotionless killing machine inside his
Pretender shell, until his innate cowardice finally surfaced.

If it happened to one of them, it likely happened to all of them on some
level. Maybe they all started to eventually believe, at least partly,
that they were "really" organic creatures. So if this were the case,
then Landmine might actually have been trying to impress the ladies of
Femax, not because he was lying or just trying to fit in, but because he
had genuinely come to think, to some degree, that he was capable of
winning their affections and their virtue.

I don't like the idea of equating Transformers to ChatGPT, if only
because chatbots are technology that we've actually achieved, and
Transformers are supposed to be so advanced and sophisticated that we
should never be able to reach that level. Also, it's arguable that
current AI is only using large language models to take a guess at what
it thinks is an appropriate response based on its training data, and
isn't truly comprehending or understanding the things that it says.
That's one of the reasons it has such a hard time separating fact from
fiction, because it's just telling you what sounds good, and not really
checking to see whether it's actually true or not.

I would sure hope that Transformers are genuinely sentient beings who
experience thoughts and feelings, and that they're not all just faking
it the way ChatGPT does. Removing their free agency in this way would
make the stories and characters a lot less interesting!


Zob (Alexa, play "Fake Plastic Trees" by Radiohead)
GoBackaTron
2024-11-28 20:39:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Zobovor
If it happened to one of them, it likely happened to all of them on some
level. Maybe they all started to eventually believe, at least partly,
that they were "really" organic creatures.
I REALLY like this ideas. The Pretender process taking a toll on the
robot inside and causing mental instability makes them tragic in a
sense. Maybe looking at it from this angle will make rereading the
Pretender stories a bit more tolerable for me.
Post by Zobovor
I don't like the idea of equating Transformers to ChatGPT, if only
because chatbots are technology that we've actually achieved, and
Transformers are supposed to be so advanced and sophisticated that we
should never be able to reach that level.
Them being so advanced and sophisticated is exactly why it may be
impossible for us to know if they are alive. They could just be alien
simulations of sentient beings that don't know they aren't alive.

I think the problem is that Budiansky's definition of robot is not
in step with the idea he created that Transformers could be sentient,
emotional, and able to experience pain. He just writes them as talking
machines with disposable parts. Their heads come off and it's no big
deal. He writes them as magical microchips with mechanical bodies. This
magical technology is so far advanced that we simply cannot know if they
are truly alive. Once humanity in the real world succeeds in developing
technology that perfectly imitates sentience, fictional microchip based
Transformer life will lose all credibility.
Post by Zobovor
Also, it's arguable that
current AI is only using large language models to take a guess at what
it thinks is an appropriate response based on its training data, and
isn't truly comprehending or understanding the things that it says.
That's one of the reasons it has such a hard time separating fact from
fiction, because it's just telling you what sounds good, and not really
checking to see whether it's actually true or not.
Yes you are absolutely right. They are just word guessers in the most
basic sense at his point. I don't know where it's going but some people
feel like it is possible the technology will advance to a point where
instead of guessing words it will be capable of independent thought and
possibly agency. Again I remain skeptical but when it comes to
Transformers I just wonder what an alien civilization's ChatGPT would
look like. Is it possible that Transfromers are just Quintesson large
language models run amok?
Post by Zobovor
I would sure hope that Transformers are genuinely sentient beings who
experience thoughts and feelings, and that they're not all just faking
it the way ChatGPT does. Removing their free agency in this way would
make the stories and characters a lot less interesting!
When I was a kid I could totally believe in the whole sentient robot
idea. But in my adult life I've spent a lot of time working with and
fixing electromechanical devices and it made me a lot more jaded and
skeptical that sentient machinery could exist. Technology when it works
is wonderful but it's also very breaky and prone to malfunction. So the
dream of giant robots or killer robots or sentient robots died in me the
day I started working on machines. I have been poisoned by experience.

But as a result I can super identify with characters in comics who
don't get that Transformers are alive. I totally understand that point
of view now and how it would be hard to shake even in the face of
overwhelming evidence like talking to an Autobot. And nowadays with LLMs
it is even more difficult to accept that real deal robotic sentience
could exist-it could just be an advanced form of ChatGPT and I wouldn't
be able to tell the difference. I'm like Sam Witwicky in the 2007 movie
telling Megan Fox that the robot is probably Japanese. 'Probably
ChatGPT' is the new 'probably Japanese'.

Loading...